| 2007 China Military Power Report | |
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| Sep 6, 2007 20:01 | #11   |
 | Erencius, 'If every nation just had deterrent policies, there won't be any problem' I am afraid that I can't agree with you at this point . Actually, in the era of Cold War, the NATO and USSR held a "Deterrent Policy". Both the Westerners and Easterners lived in the shadow of Nuclear Deterrent. That is to say, we have to live in fear. We feared our hometown was bombed by the nuclear weapons of our opponents, because no one could assure that there would be no possibility of nuclear wars. |
| Sep 7, 2007 04:08 | #12 |
| yes that's true though we had some agreements about nuclear weapons proliferation (NTP (nonproliferation treaty): between China, France, Russia, USA and UK). If there was just this, noone would dare to attack anyone, and no particular reasons to fear since the country you live in won't attack so you wont take any Nuke on your house. The Cold war was a very particular context in which two nations were fighting to extend their influence over the world. Now nuke is a passive detterent, no industrialized nation is jeopardizing the others with it. The problem nowadays is that some fanatic nations (Iran, North Korea) are ruled by mad tyrans. This is the threat: noone except them would dare to use it "for free"... |
| Sep 7, 2007 04:31 | #13 |
| The threat also comes from the US since it wishes to "purify" every single corner of Earth where there is oil and muslim that they mostly consider as terrorists. Reminds me the meaningless crusades of the 10th century, hundred thousands of people died for nothing but a religion, what a pity... Of course many American people are against the policy of their government but it is difficult for them to express their feelings about it. |
| Sep 8, 2007 05:12 | #14 |
| Erencus, Sorry, I just do not argree with you last post. Please check out your history books to find out who invaded who during the 10th century. The Christians were not the invaders but the defenders.Further, religion was the bonding of that time, there was no other point of veiw. As you would know if you did not atend Church you would be find. The Church was the Law. You cannot judge a man by a time that his not his own. You would know this? The invaders went half way across Europe untill they were finaly stoped. The rootes of that invasions still live today. If they had not have been stoped you would not be speaking French but... The American interveined in Europe when the French and the Germans stood by and watched. I undersand that your thinking comes from the left but please give this thread more balance |
| Sep 8, 2007 13:18 | #15 |
| For what is about history I know a bit about theperiod you just mentionned so let's have an history class. From 637, the Jerusalem Realm was inhabited by Arabic people, the abbassids (i made the translation from French Abbassides, but I dont know how to say). This people was a pacific one (they always let christian people go on their pilgrimage) was defeated by the Turkish people (Seldjoukides) in 1078 (you can see that even if these Arabic people were muslim, they were tolerant...). No Christian people living there as you can see (You can check these informations in any Encyclopedia). At this time the Turkish prevented the Christian to accomplish their pilgrimage and started the invasion of the Oriental Roman Empire. From THEN begun the problems and the first crusade was lauched. I may remind you that when the Turkish arrived in Jerusalem they preserved it and killed just the soldiers and the "management staff" let's say, while the Christians just destroyed half of it, killed half of the population and ransacked all the city on th 15th of July 1099. Things they are still doing today in Iraq today, heard of it ? (with missiles and bombs, less precise than a sword of course, so maybe we can understand why they kill so many innocents). I'm not saying that Americans are bad, I just say there are some actions that need reflexion. And attacking several nation and occupy these without thinking about the consequenses is really stupid. The problem is that they are mixing Arabic People and Muslim People, which is not the same. And let it seems like a crusade between two people with Manichean ideology behind (one is good, the other is evil), is just the worst thing any nation could do. There are good and evil on both sides, so none of the belligerant are bringing justice, just instability and social unrest. Yes at that time for Christianity (the Christian World), the Church was the law of course, but this assertion no more prevails now.People were free to choose to go or not (is it still the case today for the soldiers ? I wonder). This was just a matter of faith, but, for a religion who ask for non-violence, it has committed the worst crimes (at this time they were forgiven by the Pope for the crimes they were to commit, we also know the relations there are between the Catholic church and the Nazis during the second world war). History is a matter that doesn t care about moral criteria. I'm grateful to the American for preserving the French people who lived at that time (for the cowards especially, the others were already dead when they arrived) but if you remember your History classes, you'll notice they intervened only after the incident of Pearl Harbour, after when they joint the battle in Europe, the motivations were different: matter of influence the Marshall plan against the Jdanov ideology. I had many persons of my family in German extermination camps. They died there, some escaped before the arrival of the Russians and the USA. |
| Sep 8, 2007 13:19 | #16 |
| Quote: If they had not have been stoped you would not be speaking French but... No "if", it is too easy to recreate History. I don't have any patriotic fiber but I'll fight for the values of mine. And what some Americans are doing in Iraq now is pure nonesense and against any principle of logic (France did the same several centuries ago in Africa for example, but seems noone learns from History). By the way I'm not from the left nor from the right I consider that many values they have shall be merged to produce something better, I can even build an election program... But the right wing in France are more or less like the Democrats in the US, so yes obviously I'm more on the left than you most probably). So I reapeat, no nation History is "shadeless", I don't have anything against the common lucid and logic American citizen, who, I know, account for the silent majority of the population, like in any other country. |
| Sep 8, 2007 15:39 | #17 |
| Hi Erencius, I wish I were half as confident as you in reading the direction of world history, but you may be misreading the direction Dodger is coming from... I will follow the ensuing dialogue with some interest! Personally I think your comment about the US trying to 'Purify' every single corner of the earth was a bit strong (especially given your own understanding of the implications of the word purifiy), and as a student of history you should be aware that the motivations of empire have a much more complex basis, whoever may wield dominion. Strange how 25 miles can appear such a gulf at times :-) Regards, Mike |
| Sep 8, 2007 15:43 | #18 |
| btw... much appreciate your posts here and the quality of argument |
| Sep 8, 2007 19:10 | #19 |
| You are right Travellermike I put maybe too much passion in this disscussion, I'm not an history student, I'm a law and language student interested into many fields. I have got an idea about the complexity you are mentionning. Sorry for changing a bit the subject of this post ;). |
| Sep 8, 2007 19:13 | #20 |
| To clarify what i said previously is that now the stability of the region is at risk essentially because of the US policy, that's all. So it creates a threat nothing more. |
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