| Is ignorance a virtue for women? | |
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| Sep 26, 2007 01:47 |   |
 | An old Chinese saying goes, ' ignorance is women's virtue". This old saying has a profoud cultural connotation in China, which reflects the the supremacy of male in China's feudal society. In feudal China, women were viewed as inferior to men. Women were supposed to be submissive and subject to their husbands. Nowadays, the obsolete mindset still exerts its influence on Chinese males.For some men, they don't want their spouses to be superior to them in terms of degree, diploma and salary. Society still holds strong prejudice against women. In China, if a woman got a Doctor Degree, it would be considered as horrible. Usuallly, it is hard for a woman who has a Doctor Degree to get married. Should women be igonorant? Is ignorance a virtue for women? |
| Sep 26, 2007 12:17 | #1 |
| A provocative post, LEONARDO. My first thought is, what does "ignorance is women's virtue" really mean? Does it mean a woman should know how to "play dumb?" I've seen women "play dumb" to allow their husband to save face and I've seen women "play dumb" as a ruse. Only an ignorant man would think that a woman is dumb. Even uneducated women are very clever. |
| Sep 26, 2007 18:29 | #2 |
| Quote: Only an ignorant man would think that a woman is dumb. Even uneducated women are very clever. I doubt about this, it depends on individuals let's say (I know some ;)). Quote: "For some men, they don't want their spouses to be superior to them in terms of degree, diploma and salary. Society still holds strong prejudice against women. In China, if a woman got a Doctor Degree, it would be considered as horrible." Do not worry, these thoughts are widely shared all around the world not only in China ;-). In many countries women are less paid than men for the same job. I think this reaction for men is partly natural and partly social (we can discuss about it). In the nature, except very few species, males have to be superior to females, it is the principle of domination which implies kind of obedience. Males usually create and fight for the territory they built, females are living on it (this is true for many animals, carnivores and herbivores). If the male is defeated, females will follow the wining male. If you transfer this scheme in a human perspective (if it is possible), men would like to possess women to appear superior to the other men of course but also to the woman he has chosen (even during the coitus the male has commonly to go over the female who lets it be). This is the "natural" part let's say. From a social point of view, man's role has been to supply his family and to protect it, children and housework were usually the boundaries of the woman role. But since the begining of the last century, women has gained their indpendance, they are now self-responsible (financialy I mean, though in China (and in other places) some woman bask in their financial dependance...), they work which is new. Their role is growing whereas man's one is stabilizing. So men are fearing to lose their role in the couple, feel unsecure because there is no more guarantee that their wife is gonna stay with them since they can live by themselves (not like before). In Western countries, roles are are mixing and both parents are playing the same role inside the family. I guess it is fair for a couple life, but I don't know if the implications on the children's mind are good or not, since he /she needs to identify clearly which is the role of the father/mother so that is sexual and social identity is well defined. So I think the reason why men dont want women to be superior to them is a mix between the two reasons I presented above. In this case looking dumb could be a virtue for a woman if she wishes to live with a man whose education level or wage is inferior ;). |
| Sep 26, 2007 18:29 | #3 |
| What I'd like to know is how did the Chinese society, which was a matriarchal society, became a patriarchal society? We find few traces of it but still if you look at the character which means name (姓: xing) you can see that the word name is formed with the woman symbol. Some small minorities are still using the matriarchal system, but they are really few by now. Maybe the behaviour of women in Shanghai is also a relic of this past... I'd like to know more about this point. |
| Sep 26, 2007 20:33 | #4 |
| What's the behavior of women in SH?? I'm rather curious :P |
| Sep 26, 2007 22:15 | #5 |
| Griz 326, "ignorance is women's virtue", Originally, this old saying means that it is better for women to receive little education and have a little knowledge. In the feudal China, the male dominated almost every parts of social life. The advocacy of this idea by the male dominator was to maintain the patriarchical system, in which the male was in a dominant position. This old doctrine was also reflected in another feudal Chinese doctrine" wives are subject to their husbands" which is part of confucianism. In the past, these old doctrines trapped women deeply, and put women in a vulnerable position. "Only an ignorant man would think that a woman is dumb. Even uneducated women are very clever". As to this point, I do favor Erencius' opinion that "it depends on individuals". You probably make a generalization or an overstatement. "Even uneducated women are very clever." Well, this is a reallly arguable question. Here, I don't want to divert too much from the topic. Quote: I think this reaction for men is partly natural and partly social (we can discuss about it). In the nature, except very few species, males have to be superior to females, it is the principle of domination which implies kind of obedience. Males usually create and fight for the territory they built, females are living on it (this is true for many animals, carnivores and herbivores). If the male is defeated, females will follow the winning male. Erencius, I can not deny the fact that men are born to be physically stronger than women. Well, it might be a little biased to say that "males have to be superior to females, it is the principle of domination which implies kind of obedience." The domination of male was not ruled since the dawn of human civilization. I 'd rather interprete this dominance of male from the perspective of economic development or the evolution of human society. As you know, in the far primitive society, namely matriarchal society, it was women who dominated the society. In the primitive era, women's leading status was determined by the low-productivitiy economy. The main economic output was the leaves and fruits of the trees in the wild. Gathering wild fruits and leaves is the main economic activity. Women worked more fruitfully in such kinds of economic activity because they have more flexible fingers than men. Women played a very important role in supplying family. The important economic role of women in society led to their dominant role in the whole society. During the transition from the "plants-gathering economy" to "hunting eoconomy", men's physical strength became prominent and advantageous. Gradually, the male played a dominant role in economic activity. Matriarchal system was replaced by the patriarchical society.( Erencius, I hope that your question have been adresssed.) |
| Sep 27, 2007 02:00 | #6 |
| Thanks for the answer Leonardo ;) But just one thing: I think this reaction for men is partly natural and partly social (we can discuss about it). In the nature, except very few species, males have to be superior to females, it is the principle of domination which implies kind of obedience. Males usually create and fight for the territory they built, females are living on it (this is true for many animals, carnivores and herbivores). If the male is defeated, females will follow the winning male. I said this about living animals in the nature not especially for men: it was just a way to explain this kind of instict. |
| Sep 27, 2007 02:53 | #7 |
| "Only an ignorant man would think that a woman is dumb. Even uneducated women are very clever."; well said GRIZ!! And for the rest of the discussion, I would say that like LEONARDO mentioned at the beginning of his is thread: this was just an old saying. Times have changed and I truly believe that men and women are equal [OK, not physically, but for the rest..]. It's interresting reading the thread, but at the same time, I find it useless to try to explain why some men still want to be 'superior' to their wifes. I don't see why it would be a problem for the kids developpement to see his/her partents equal in the couple. I would not want to be dominated physically or psychologically by my wife; who would anyway? So I don't know why some man still feel like they have something to prove in that sense toward their wife; maybe they had something going wrong in their evolution (the Darwin type of evolution); hence Erencius' reference to the animal instincts. The topic of the thread was specifically about superiority in salary and education: "Nowadays, the obsolete mindset still exerts its influence on Chinese males.For some men, they don't want their spouses to be superior to them in terms of degree, diploma and salary..." so I would end by saying that I would have no problem marrying a Chinese (or of any other nationality) woman with a higher education than mine; this would not make me lose my face and I'd be proud of it. And if she earns more than me; well, even better!! If this would cause a problem to any man; I'd quick his sissy @ss alright and ask him: " how's your daddy now?" lol |
| Sep 27, 2007 05:20 | #8 |
| Quote: "I don't see why it would be a problem for the kids developpement to see his/her partents equal in the couple." I didn't say equality was a problem, I said the fact that the roles are merging is a problem for the kids development. |
| Sep 27, 2007 05:30 | #9 |
| Quote: "What's the behavior of women in SH?? I'm rather curious :P" More dominating ;) haha... |
| Sep 27, 2007 07:10 | #10 |
| Perhaps the real power of a Vulva has been under estimated by us. We all seek to 'Have one" The power of a Woman comes from a different anglel.We assume to as men to dominate and are in fact dominated Perhaps they have forgoten this themselfs. Dodger |
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